Trouble selecting a Smalltalk implementation

[MC Andre]

I'd like to learn Smalltalk, but I can't decide on an implementation.
Squeak and Pharo have good documentation and installers for Mac,
Windows, and Linux. But Squeak and Pharo require running a VM/GUI app.
I prefer command line programming for too many reasons to get into.

There's GNU Smalltalk, which does run as a command line program, but
has no installers, only source and a makefile. I currently use MSYS,
but in my experience it's a major pain to get anything working in that
environment.

If someone can tell me how to run Squeak or Pharo scripts in a typical
bash shell, or provide GST installers for Mac, Windows, and Linux, I'd
be much more likely to explore Smalltalk.

Side note: I experience a similar situation with Common Lisp. CLISP
installs well on Mac/Windows/Linux, but has trouble with FFI. SBCL has
no trouble with FFI, but can't install on certain Xen configurations.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

MC> I'd like to learn Smalltalk, but I can't decide on an implementation.
MC> Squeak and Pharo have good documentation and installers for Mac,
MC> Windows, and Linux. But Squeak and Pharo require running a VM/GUI app.
MC> I prefer command line programming for too many reasons to get into.

The real power of Smalltalk is the IDE. You can pretend that Smalltalk
is meant to be a scripting languge, but you'll miss out on most of the
useful stuff.

I suggest using either of the free books "Squeak by Example" or "Pharo
by Example", and the corresponding fork of Squeak (yes, they're both
Squeak under the hood).

[fjern]

MC> I'd like to learn Smalltalk, but I can't decide on an implementation.
MC> Squeak and Pharo have good documentation and installers for Mac,
MC> Windows, and Linux. But Squeak and Pharo require running a VM/GUI app.
MC> I prefer command line programming for too many reasons to get into.
The real power of Smalltalk is the IDE. You can pretend that Smalltalk
is meant to be a scripting languge, but you'll miss out on most of the
useful stuff.
I suggest using either of the free books "Squeak by Example" or "Pharo
by Example", and the corresponding fork of Squeak (yes, they're both
Squeak under the hood).

On windows you find a perfect IDE and a solid smalltalk in Dolphin
http://www.object-arts.com/
and yes the language itself is good, but it is the working style the IDE
makes possible which boost your creativity and productivity so much
/Søren

[gargoyle60]

Post by fjern
On windows you find a perfect IDE and a solid smalltalk in Dolphin
http://www.object-arts.com/
and yes the language itself is good, but it is the working style the IDE
makes possible which boost your creativity and productivity so much
/Søren

I would agree.

I started using Dolphin but then switched to VisualWorks due to Dolphin's absence outside the
Windows platform (that may have changed, I haven't checked recently).

Another one is Smalltalk/X and I believe it also uses the more traditional MVC framework as with
VisualWorks.

There is always Squeak but I persnally can't stand the IDE. It's a matter of individual taste.

Gary

[Randal L. Schwartz]

gargoyle60> There is always Squeak but I persnally can't stand the
gargoyle60> IDE. It's a matter of individual taste.

Are you talking about the IDE we've had for most of the 90's, or the IDE
of modern Squeak and Pharo? They're quite different, at least in look
and feel.

[gargoyle60]

IDE of modern Squeak

Like I say it's a personal thing. Perhaps it's just that I haven't taken time to customize it for my
preferences, but I find the "straight out of the box" image to appear very toy-like, at least on my
machine. In an older version I did manage to improve the font and color scheme (some time ago) but
since then I haven't really touched Squeak.

[steve]

I agree with the other posters that the VM/GUI adds tremendously to your
productivity. It is a core part of the smalltalk experience. I didn't
even know you could develop smalltalk from a command line interface.

But since you are primarily looking for a command line interface, it
sounds like GNU Smalltalk is your choice. (I don't know of any other
smalltalk implementations that offer this.).

The makefile issue is probably easier than you think, it is just a
couple of sudo commands. try this, if instructions are not given
explicitly.

Generic Instructions on How to Install from Sources in Linux
==============================================================
Step 1, unpack the archive:
tar -xzvf xxxxx.tgz

Step 2, compile:
cd xxxxx
sudo make

Step 3, install:
sudo make install


Good Luck.

Post by MC Andre
I'd like to learn Smalltalk, but I can't decide on an implementation.
Squeak and Pharo have good documentation and installers for Mac,
Windows, and Linux. But Squeak and Pharo require running a VM/GUI app.
I prefer command line programming for too many reasons to get into.
There's GNU Smalltalk, which does run as a command line program, but
has no installers, only source and a makefile. I currently use MSYS,
but in my experience it's a major pain to get anything working in that
environment.
If someone can tell me how to run Squeak or Pharo scripts in a typical
bash shell, or provide GST installers for Mac, Windows, and Linux, I'd
be much more likely to explore Smalltalk.
Side note: I experience a similar situation with Common Lisp. CLISP
installs well on Mac/Windows/Linux, but has trouble with FFI. SBCL has
no trouble with FFI, but can't install on certain Xen configurations.

[gargoyle60]

Post by MC Andre
I prefer command line programming

As an alternative to command line programming, or to using an IDE, have you considered just using a
text editor to write your code and then copying/pasting into the relevant IDE panels?

Another alternative, you could write your code in a text file in either chunk/XML format (depending
upon your chosen Smalltalk implementation) and then "file in" the .st text file.

[Göran Krampe]

A brand new Smalltalk that might fit your needs is Amber:

http://www.amber-lang.net

Since it:

[Göran Krampe]

Oops. Accidentally pressed some key :)

Anyway, Amber:

- Has a pretty good IDE running inside your browser, but is not image based.
- Has pretty good support for "CLI" apps since you can build Amber apps on top of Nodejs and well, any kind of js runtime really.
- Has a command line compiler and several examples with Makefiles.

regards, Göran

[Steve Graham]

Post by Göran Krampe
Oops. Accidentally pressed some key :)
- Has a pretty good IDE running inside your browser, but is not image based.
- Has pretty good support for "CLI" apps since you can build Amber apps on top of Nodejs and well, any kind of js runtime really.
- Has a command line compiler and several examples with Makefiles.
regards, Göran

I brought up a workspace and would like to bring up Tetris. I typed
'Tetris initialize.' (without the ticks), selected it and pressed DoIt,
but nothing happened.

What am I missing?

Thanks, Steve